Marc Gwamaka & Christian Intwari: Engaging Youth to Remember Our Past for a Unified Future

Inkonversation S02 Ep 7

To commemorate the 30th Anniversary of the 1994 Genocide against the Tutsi, our CEO Julienne Oyler hosts a live conversation with Marc Gwamaka of Peace and Lovers Proclaimers - Youth for Change (organizer of Walk to Remember) and Christian Intwari of Our Past Initiative. They discuss this year’s theme: Remember, Unite, Renew as well as the contribution of different youth organizations in the transmission of memory and rebuilding of the country.

Transcript

Transcript 

Julienne 

Welcome to INKOnversation. Inkonversation is a very special edition today. This podcast will be about Kwibuka 30. And what kwibuka 30 is, it commemorates 3 decades since the 1994 genocide against the Tutsi, which claimed the lives of over 1,000,000 individuals solely based on their identity. Kwibuka, 30, is an event that brings together so many people, so many voices, and we are honored today to have two very important people on this podcast with us. We have Marc Gwamaka, International training and outreach coordinator at the Kigali Genocide Memorial. We also have Christian Intwari, founder of Our past initiative. So thank you gentlemen for joining. This conversation is going to be structured in three parts. Kwibuka Twiyubaka, loosely translates into Remember, Unite and Renew. Kwibuka, 30 today is also honoring not just the lives lost during the 1994 genocide against the Tutsi, the survivors, but it's also… Rwanda is now witnessing an emergence of a new generation of leaders who are dedicated to ensuring that the phrase never again becomes a reality. So with that. I want to bring it back to you, Marc.

As we think about remembering our past. When you were a young man, you devoted yourself to promoting unity and reconciliation through Peace and Love, Proclaimer. Can you tell us one what that is? And two, what inspired you to start that initiative? 

Marc 

Growing up in Rwanda after 1994 genocide. One of the things that you could not fail to witness was the suffering and being that I'm among those kids who are growing up 1994, there are lots of stories which were emphasizing the hurt that people went through. So that's… As a child you hear it, but you do not internalize it because you feel like you know these are stories that are happening. You can hear something, it's sad, and then you move on. But as you grow, you realize the gravity of what really happened. So when I was in high school, probably in my Grade 10 or grade 11, there was… There was a report by the Rwandan Parliament that said that the genocide ideology was among young people. 

Marc 

Now when we say genocide ideology, this is the root of what eventually becomes a genocide. So it's that hatred that people have, and they were writing threats to other students about, you know, killing them again, we never finished this job and all these different things as that was going on. There was also an issue where young people were not even being involved in what was going on. So that was said over a period of time that when I went to other places, I realized that, if they're saying someone should be doing something, that someone should be me. 

Julienne

Hmm. 

Marc 

So that's the inspiration and that's where it comes from.

Julienne 

So what did or does peace and love Proclaimers do? 

Marc 

So Peace and Love Proclaimers: youthful change, are also known as PLP. That's quite a lot. When we started, we wanted to fight against genocide and that can be seen in different activities that we do. For example, walk to remember, which is a national… It has become an international event, bringing over 60,000 people from all over the world to walk. And it has gathered people from all levels of life, from heads of states to businessmen to young people. But also, we contributed to the conversation in the country. How do we make Rwanda better? And for me and some of the leaders, it was “How do we create leaders who are going to go out there and make a difference?” So that's what we did. That's what we do, and I hope that's what we'll keep doing. 

Julienne 

One of those leaders who is very clearly making a difference in Rwanda and abroad is Christian, and the founding of our past initiative. Christian, it's such an incredible organization that you have founded to support Genocide survivors and other vulnerable people in Rwanda. Can you please share with us? What inspired you to start our past initiative? What is the impact that you've had to date? And also, what are your visions for the future? 

Christian 

Having been part of PLP, also, growing up with so many questions that needed answers, helped me to… not only with some friends start Our past, but also to find ways I can one ask the right questions too. After you start asking questions, that's when you start seeing where the challenges are. Are you going to be able to provide solutions. We used to be part of one of the biggest dance school from high school and after organizing 2 events. An audience of 200 young people showing up, we said, OK, actually we can use this group of young people and. Create something to make an impact, not just the entertainment. So that's what the idea came from. When we started, it wasn't just our past. It was a question. A theme that says forget not your past. So, over the years, we have been able to… One, to learn and educate other young people. Two,we wanted to push the young people to ask the right questions, but also create ways we can bridge the gap between the younger and the older generation. So three was part of making an impact. Finding ways through the small contribution we can have among us, going to the community. You have to go to those communities where we have genocide, survivors where we have widows, we have orphans. And then see the challenges they're facing. These are the effects of the genocide. After doing that, that's when you also put this young people to understand that they have a role to play in the building process of the country. So that's how Our Past was born. And I've said that we have grown from an audience of over 200 to 2700 people. We are hoping we keep making this huge impact. 

Julienne 

Thank you for sharing that, and thank you for the work that you and all of your colleagues do. Last year during Kwibuka 29, His Excellency President Paul Kagame made a comment that highlighted the need for young Rwandans. Young people in this country to learn about the past. So that they can lead with historical clarity. But also with a sense of responsibility and accountability. Now this very this question is very practical. Start with you Mark first and then we'll go to Christian. But what are some very practical tools and resources that young people in Rwanda and across the world can access to learn about the history? And also instill that sense of responsibility and accountability. 

Marc 

So at the moment, we have over 260 memorials across the country. Which means wherever you live in Rwanda, you're most likely going to have access to a memorial. There is access to that information. So you can literally go there and find information. There are also classes, so, for example the Kigali Genocide Memorial, has something called the peace and values education. And the peace and values education goes deep into understanding the history of Rwanda, people who participated in the history, but also the impact it had. How do we build after that. The key values that we deal with, are empathy, critical thinking and personal responsibility. This can be accessed by anyone if you're in Rwanda. 

When you go on the international scene, we've also organized similar trainings, mostly for the Rwandan diaspora, but also most universities around the world where we've gone to provide these trainings. Beyond that, if you ever visit the Kigali Genocide memorial, the Kigali Genocide Memorial, has information on it, but it also has a virtual tour, which means you can visit the Kigali Genocide Memorial without leaving your… your house, pretty much. So that becomes a source of information too. We have the Genocide Archive of Rwanda, the Genocide Archive of Rwanda, has testimonies from perpetrators, survivors, but also rescuers, and there are… there is also written work of research that is there. You can also visit the genocide research hub, which has a lot of research work to deal with different issues that are going on in Rwanda but also around the world. 

There is the Kwibuka podcast, which has 100 days of the genocide. Depending on where you are, you can sign up on any of the… for example, the Genocide Archive of Rwanda you can sign up on it. It has another platform called Isoko. Isoko, meaning a source. And Isoko has information that you can use to even tell your children about Genocide. So some of the questions that young people might have, those will be there. And lastly, for anyone who's in the education, there is a platform called Ubumuntu... U.B.U.M.U.N.T.U dot R.W Ubumuntu has content for parents, teachers, youth, and decision makers. And all this content is set in a way that you can interact with it so that, If you're not ready to go at a certain point, then you don't need to go there. So it will take you through those details and I think this would be good sources of information. 

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Julienne 

You've given us now a lot of good resources, online resources. Online is now a really tricky place to get the truth. And so if there are people out there who want to know about the 94 Genocide against the Tutsi, and they Google it, I'm also imagining that there's a lot of misinformation and disinformation that's out there. So how do we help young people and old people get the right information? 

Marc 

That's a fair point. Websites, media houses are all mediums where we transfer the knowledge that we want, or we have to a certain group of people. I think what we're building at the moment is having those credible sources. That's why we go even to the Genocide research hub. And the reason for that is “Where do I get credible, well researched information that is done by Rwandans themselves?” because that's also very important. Why is it important? It’s because back in the day, most information that was written about Rwanda was written by non Rwandans with a perspective that is not Rwandan. Now we've gone beyond that, and now we are creating information from the truth of what we have to make sure that it's out. I think the credibility comes from the authors. The credibility comes from the testimonies, the credibility comes from someone even digging deeper.

So when you go to the Genocide research hub or the Genocide Archive of Rwanda, there is all this information that is credible. You can see what we're telling you. It's not like a write-up from just an opinion. No, it's an artifact that you have in your hands that is going to even show you what it is, and then it's explained to you. So the credibility of information is something that has been worked on, we are working on, but we're also going to work on in future.

The reason I talked about mediums would be tonight… today people are going to use various platforms. Instagram, Twitter and all these are the different platforms. I think what we're going next should be that we're able to create information that fits these mediums. So that whenever people are looking for information, they can also find it in these places. 

Julienne 

It's incredibly helpful. But you know, I think we turn it back to Christian. I mean, Christian I first learned about Our past initiative actually on Instagram and seeing you on there and using social media as a way to share about your work, but also engage other young people. Using social media as a tool to reach people, not just in Kigali, but all across the country you know. How do you see sort of digital channels as a way of advancing your initiative? And also you know, what are some other resources in addition to what Marc mentioned that people can go to learn about the history with accuracy and also feel that sense of responsibility and accountability? 

Christian 

So we have been pushing so hard for… to any platform, we get a chance to get to, to mention Kwibuka podcast. If you've had the chance to listen to it, it has all the data, all the details. All the information anyone who's learning for the very first time can… will need to understand how the genocide happened. And all the information are there. So Kwibuka podcast, you can find it on Spotify, YouTube. Those are the two I know that are being used by young people. You can use human resource. Some of us have the chance to have parents today, others have their grandparents. Some of the communities we have, people who committed the genocide, and now they have been integrated in the community and some of them are willing to talk and explain what happened so we can start from that. And then also think before we react to everything we see on social media, because that's where the… I think the issue comes from. I think we have the chance that the leadership is available anywhere we want to reach out to them. And most of these people have so many information we can use to learn about our past. 

Marc 

And also to add, i had left… you want to say call the Ibiganiro or like in conversation. So for example for people in Rwanda during the week of commemoration, this week that we are in, there are conversations that are happening on the Community level. And those people can actually go and listen. There will be a lot of information and testimonies, 

Julienne 

Marc, you just mentioned many of the events happening in Rwanda during this week and one of those, tomorrow, is hosted by our past initiative. Where Christian, I just want to appreciate you for being in this conversation because this is an incredibly busy time for you. Tomorrow you are hosting over 4000. 

Julienne 

Young people, middle-aged people, old people, people from Rwanda, people from outside Rwanda at the Kicukiro Nyanza Genocide Memorial Amphitheatre. It really is an intergenerational dialogue. So how do you navigate bringing together, generations for this really important conversation with events like what you're having tomorrow? 

Christian 

I think when we started. The very first question was how do we attract young people? To be able to connect the two generations, you have to find a common ground. You have to find a way to communicate to both of them. So one of the tools was art. Art is a universal language. You will find a way to get the message throughout. So that's why we use poetry. We use drama, we use music. And we also, as I mentioned, use human resource where we invite genocide survivors, people who stopped the genocides, leaders in different positions to interact with the young people and help them to understand and go deeper about our history. So we use art and for the past 12 years that we have been doing our past seems to be working. And we see the results. So we just have to keep making it interesting, especially for the young people because as I mentioned, we want to create ways we can open their eyes and push them to even think big. And we're trying to raise more questions, the right ones, of course 

Julienne 

What I'm hearing you say in some ways is just how important young people are to the conversation but also in the dialogue to make sure we understand their history and also go forward with sort of that sense of responsibility. But young people is a broad group of people. They consume information in many different ways, and so, you know, the beauty of our past is using conversation, intergenerational conversation in person, events, but also social media. 

Julienne 

Art other ways, because your objective is to make sure that this resonates with as many people as possible. 

So Marc. This one is over to you continuing with the theme of unity, but through your role right now at Kigali Genocide Memorial, Aegis Trust.  You leverage education to pass on values. And the need for peace to diverse audiences, local and international communities. How do you see the role of someone like me, somebody who is not from Rwanda, but who considers Rwanda my adopted home, in ensuring that we too are promoting Peace and unity and prosperity for all? 

Marc 

I think, firstly, you're lucky that you're here. By you being here and then learning and understanding the history of Rwanda, learning and understanding the journey that it took to prepare and head to a Genocide. That opens up your eyes to what is happening elsewhere in the world. That's why I said you're lucky, but also the world is lucky because by you being here, and you have access to the other world, and you can speak, and they hear you. That means that you become an ambassador. Not only for Rwanda, but also an ambassador of peace who's saying, hey, listen. What you're saying is hate speech. It might sound like free speech now, but 2,3,4 steps down the road it may lead you to what happened in Rwanda. So the first thing for you as a Rwandan now, it is. How much can I learn? And this is not just for you. I think it's for all of us, Rwandans. How much can I learn about the tragedy of what happened? So that I'm able to give information that is going to be transforming to me, but also transformational to the others. I think that's the most important part where being here you're lucky, but also the world is lucky because whoever you speak to at times, they can listen to you more than they can listen to me. But also when you speak to a different culture, having come from here. And you understand the other culture, it makes it very easy for you to communicate in a language that they understand more than I might communicate, because my culture is different. So that becomes the thing that you can do. 

Julienne 

Thank you for that. You know, I have been working in Rwanda. For over 12 years now, and actually one of the very first events that I went to when I first moved to Rwanda was Kwibuka 18, and I participated in walk to remember where we walked from Parliament to the stadium. And so it really is a tremendous honor to be here with you for founding that event and for inviting people like me from the international community in our very first trips to Rwanda into that part of the history. But you're absolutely right. I am tremendously lucky. I am tremendously lucky to live and work in Rwanda, in a country that teaches so many important lessons about how to live together better and. 

Julienne 

Being able to take those lessons in the work that we do. And it's not just back in the United States where I grew up, where you're absolutely right, there's an argument right now of the difference between free speech and hate speech. And how much hurt that brings to people and how much damage that that can cause. As we think about. Renew as part of the theme of Kwibuka. A word that comes to mind. It's a Kinyarwanda word. The word is Ejo. Meaning yesterday and tomorrow. You both have organizations and initiatives that have the Past, Remember, Yesterday in the title. That you are engaging with Tomorrow, with young people, with the way forward. How do you think about yesterday in your tomorrow's? 

Christian 

As our history shows, it shouldn't be that hard for someone to understand where we want to go as a country and where we want to take our country and the people around us. One, we have to make sure that we understand more than 100% where we are coming from. Because you can only prevent what you understand how to prevent it. If you don't understand the genocide, how are you going to fight its ideology, its preparations, and everything that comes with it. So we want to first engage young people. Make them understand where this country is coming from. Give them proof and facts of what happened 30 years ago. And like that, it will be easier to guide them in the future. It will be easier to ask them or educate them about the dos and don'ts. Because you can only. Uh. Navigate your ways to the future, if you understand what your past is and where you're coming from.

Marc 

And looking back all the way from, you know, 1090, when Rwanda becomes a country and starts developing to 1435 to 1478.  When I look back at the history of Rwanda as a whole. Where the time when we were independent and making our own decisions, but even the choices that we made, choosing what others had brought to us. Which led US 1959, which led us 1960,1962,1963, which led us to 72, 76, 77 and all these other years that people are being killed. But also when I look back and look at things like the 1994 genocide against Tutsi, I look at its ugly part, but also look at the part where humanity did not dissolve completely. Where we have people who rescued others, one of the youngest rescuer during the genocide is called Grace, and she was only nine years of age. And she rescues a baby and takes this baby. And this baby is now grown up. So when I look at the history of Rwanda, I look at the good part, the bad part. But I also see that humanity continued even when others had made terrible choices. Now, when I start looking at the future. I start thinking about the same thing. If we made decisions at some point in time and those decisions were that would kill our brothers and sisters, isn't it possible that in future we can make the same decisions? And then my question starts being, what am I doing now that might contribute towards the future? Might be in the positive or in the negative, and that's where I go to education. How can we have young people …going to the question about having Information and gauging which information is right. How can we go…? How can we be critical thinkers? So that we understand what is right and what is wrong. But also can we be empathetic enough to understand that what might harm me, hurt me, can also hurt you? And also how can we be responsible enough to not think that someone else is going to bring a solution, but it's going to start from me? So that's how I look at the past, but also look in the future knowing that if I don't make a decision now and work with people so that we can make decisions now what happened is possible. It can happen again. But I hope and pray that, at least in Rwanda, we have learned our lesson, and we're going to make a different choice. 

Speaker 4 

Hmm. 

Julienne 

That is an incredibly, incredibly powerful, and it is a very clear mark that you and Christian. Or inspired to by other young. People. To do this work, to do the hard work of educating people of the atrocities of the past, of carrying people with the stories of, of survivors, of engaging in ways of unity. And in peace building in the future is very, very clear that you all are living and working your values.  And we are so much better because of the work that you both do. So thank you. Thank you for that. My next question is. 

How can an organization like ours or other organizations in private sector, people who might not see their profession as contributing to the type of future that we want? How how do we engage in this commemoration period? But not just for the 100 days of Kwibuka 30, but all year round. 

Christian 

I think I should start with uh, knowing that you have the… a healthy environment, uh. As a company or as an institution that knows the well-being of your staff, especially that those that might have experienced the Genocide. Because this is sometimes what some of the institutions miss. It is the fact that they don't know that they're surrounded by survivors or sometimes kids who come from the perpetrators, who live in this Rwanda where we are all the same. But every time during, especially during this period that is coming, we all go back in the past and start asking those questions. So I think you should start from there. Then you also see what you can do for the community. There is work that needs to be done in our communities. We still have people that…, for example, this year we are looking at 4000 people that are in need of health insurance, Genocide survivors. We look at around more than 1000 genocide survivors that need domestic animals that can help them to become self-sufficient. So if you can, find out where there is a small support that is needed. And there is no small support any supports can contribute to the cause. So, if you can be able to contribute to any of those two elements, that will be a huge support to the Community, to the survivors, to the, Uh, some of the kids or relatives of the perpetrators who? Who are with us today and needs supporting in so many ways. So I think as an institution, you can think of any of those. 

Marc 

Yeah, I think for me. If you look at Alvin Stubb's continuum of violence, and you know, people should look it up, the 10 steps that lead to a genocide. The first step is usually difficult living conditions. And those difficult living conditions make people start in-grouping, and they can easily stigmatize against the other, and they create the us versus them. And then it goes on and on and on and on. I think the first thing that Inkomoko is doing is actually taking away that part. Which means when you take away the difficult living conditions and support families and support communities to actually have a livelihood. You've taken away the first step of what might lead to a genocide. Because now people who have a livelihood, they can be manipulated, but many of them are not easily manipulated to take lives. Because they have something for their livelihood. So you're actually doing something in that line. Two, I think it's very important for organizations to know that they don't work with saints. Even themselves are not Saints, even us, we're not Saints here. But by knowing that, that makes you invest in your employees to learn and understand all that Is to learn about there. About conflict resolution, about empathy, about critical thinking and all these other trainings that come up. Because the more you keep people, the more you even transform their identity. For example, if I ask someone who are you the most likely going to tell me what they do? But when you go deeper and help them form that identity as you give them more information so that they can easily choose what is right. Then you're contributing to that. That can be done within the organization, but also remember, since you spend more time at work, you're most likely going to take the values you have at work at home. If it's a healthy environment, and if it's a place where people are likely to love what's going on, so they're going to take that at home. So by the workplace, being a healthy place, means that you're going to influence the home too. So as an organization, as you think about those different facets of life, it's very important to know that these humans that we deal with on a daily basis need to be equipped. Because whatever we're going to give them from here, If they have an… a toxic environment, they're going to take that back at home. So by working through that, you are also contributing. Lastly, I think as an organization now during this period. I think Christian, kind of mentioned it. I was going to say “komoje ho” cause it felt like it was the right word to use. Understanding that within the organization that, you have the young people come from this history. Now these young people are the true victims of the genocide because they're living the consequences of the choices they did not make. Being from families of perpetrators, this child did not make that decision. Being from a family where this child survived, or their parents survived, they didn't make this decision. But they live the consequences of that, having that at the back of your mind. And providing an environment, but also a healthy environment where people can eventually start speaking and healing and that environment to be safe, that means you're going to contribute to their own healing, but also contribute to the healing of the entire nation. 

Julienne 

This next question is tough, especially given the world events that's happening. That are happening right now. I'm going to start with a quote. It's from Elie Wiesel, who is a Holocaust survivor, a peace activist and Nobel Prize winner. And he says. “Never again becomes more than a slogan. It's a prayer, a promise, a vow. There will never again be hatred. People say never again Jail and torture. Never again to the suffering of innocent people or the shooting of starving, frightened, terrified children. And never again the glorification of base, ugly, dark violence, it's a prayer. And we look across the world right now at what's happening in Gaza. We look across the world at what's happening in Sudan. We look across the world, and we see that never again is actually happening. But Christian, both you and Mark were inspired to start something. In line with that saying of never again. So do the people who are listening inside Rwanda and outside Rwanda. Some of our colleagues who work in refugee camps and places of displacement with clients who were forcibly displaced because of violence, because that never again, is still happening. What is something that you can say to that listener who was inspired today to truly make never again a reality? 

Christian 

That's a very hard question to answer, but I have been asking myself the same question. And it's so hard to find the right words to use. To the kids who are starving in Gaza, to those who are fleeing Sudan. Because every time you think the world learned the lesson, they prove you wrong. So it's... I just wish people can go back and ask themselves, when did the war uh provide the solution? When did the killings? When was the killings the right answer. Because that's. That's where I think the issue is. Not understanding that killing more. women and children and destroying homes is not going to be the right answer. But also knowing that you're working in refugee camps, you. Working for organizations like UNICEF and with Red cross and other organizations and your life might be taken away in the blink of an eye. So I encourage these people to keep fighting for the world we want to see, and I just pray we find solutions in conversations rather than in killings wars. 

Marc 

That makes me think and wonder, is there something more that I could do, that we could do to make sure that we build that world, that is equitable for all. But also where children can be safe. And it has been historical from looking back, if you look at 1948, the Genocide Convention, 15 years later…, it didn't take even a generation to pass the same generation that had come up with the Genocide Convention 1963. They were killing people in Rwanda and the same newspapers that was talking about the Genocide Convention are saying that they are Tutsis being killed in Rwanda. But also, I'd say, there was light at the end of the tunnel. It might feel like the heavens have fallen. But these two will come to pass. And when they come to pass, I pray that you make a different decision. A decision to live with your brother. A decision to build a future where your children will not face any discrimination.  And I hope they make that decision, and they choose that. 

Julienne 

Hope. Let's end with hope. Christian what? What gives you hope today? 

Christian 

Rwanda gives me hope. 

Looking at this country and where as Rwandans we are coming from and what we have been able to achieve in the past 30 years gives me hope. Having the leadership we have gives me hope. To have the chance growing up in this country in the tough times we went through as kids, but having the chance to have the leadership this country had. Access education. Accessing health. To healthcare and so many other opportunities gives me hope that, not only Rwandas, but the world can learn from what we have been able to accomplish and take it as a lesson that we can even go beyond where we are today. So that gives me hope. 

Marc 

There is hope in the young generation and for all these places where atrocities are happening, humanity doesn't go. There are stories of hope that we can build on. In Rwanda that might be rescuers, people refused to follow the bandwagon and do what the other people were doing. But also in the rest of the world, people are doing some things that, you know, show that there is hope in humanity. And I think that hope and humanity and what people are doing is what we need to build on to build the future. So I'm hopeful because I know those people are there, and I can't wait that this madness stops so that we can build on what humanity has done. 

Julienne 

We have a saying. That is written on the wall of many of our offices in the region. And the saying is “All problems on the continent. Have solutions that already exist on the continent.” And for me to close with hope. I actually want to quote two more dedicated, committed leaders. And the first person is Christian. And you said that. “When is war ever the solution? When is killing ever the solution?” And what gives me hope is that the problems of violence, the problems of insecurity, the problems when people aren't able to live dignified lives, the solution isn't war. The solution? Are the people. On the continent. Who have humanity? 

And to quote another young leader. Mark, you said that humanity continues when… even though others have made terrible choices. And that gives me hope as well, and it gives me hope for anyone listening to this. Anyone who is experiencing a situation where others are making terrible choices around them. That we have the power to continue with humanity, to continue to live with dignity, to continue to live where our neighbors and our relatives are living with peace, and to be inspired by grace. The 9-year-old rescuer who 30 years ago rescued a baby. To be inspired like her. But to be also be inspired by Our past and Walk to remember and people who are encouraging more and more young people to be the solutions that our communities need. Both home and abroad. That is what gives me hope. You are what gives me hope. But Rwanda is what gives me hope. It is such an honor to share this time with you. I can't wait to see where your initiatives go and how we can continue to support you both your work and to continue to have these conversations. So thank you very much. 

Marc 

Thank you. 

Christian 

Thank you for having me. 

END